North Detroit Ave.

I find that I need to note that I have found an analytical issue, and I wanted to share it..  There are some issues regarding  identifying the houses on Detroit.

detroit1915

1915 Sanborn Map, Sheet 4, courtesy of the Tulsa City County Library.

You will notice on this map, dated 1915, there are only a few houses and addresses shown.  One of them is 523, which is Dr. Jackson’s house.    I recently received a more clear version of Beryl Ford collection A2455, thanks to Ian Swart of the Tulsa Historical Society.

A2455

Beryl Ford, A2455. Tulsa Historical Society.

You will notice it depicts the back side of Detroit, and clearly shows the foundations of the houses – including the unfinished foundation that was not burned.

We know that one of the lot borders comes down, just south of center of Easton coming over the hill.  Another is halfway between that and the portion of Easton that runs along the south of the block (at the edge of the photo).

We know this because of this version of the same photograph:

riot165

A slightly different angle from one of the panoramas:

RiotPanorama.jpg

From that we can make some estimates of width of the lots.

newA2455

Which means we can place 503 and 523.

Looking at the Census, the Directories, and the Events of the Tulsa Disaster, we get:

503 N Detroit Wright, Mary Alice Wid: Arthur.  2 story frame with basement
505 N Detroit
507 N Detroit Bridgewater, Robert T. Wife: Mattie M. Physician 103 1/2 N Greenwood  1 frame story with basement
511 N Detroit Bridgewater, T.R.(owner) Smitherman, Andrew J. Wif: Ollie Editor, Tulsa Star 1 frame story with basement
515 N Detroit McKeever, Joseph J. Wife: Myrtle Dentist 1 frame story with basement
521 N Detroit Woods, William H. Wife: Eliza pastor Union Baptist Church 1 frame story with basement
522 N Detroit Digney, Mary A.
523 N Detroit Andrew, Andrew C. Wife: Julia A. Physician 503 N Greenwood. 1 frame story with basement
527 N Detroit Stovall, Jesse Wife: Birdie Janitor
529 N Detroit Magill, Harrison M. Teacher BTW HS 1 frame story with basement
531 N Detroit Woods, Ellis W. Wife: Anna Principal BTW HS 1 frame story with basement
533 N Detroit Stoval, Jesse (See above) 1 frame story with basement
537 N Detroit Gentry, Thomas R. Wife Lottie E. W. Gentry, Neeley & Vaden 1 frame story with basement
541 N Detroit Brown, Curtis D. Wife: Alleze. Porter 1 frame story with basement
602 N Detroit Beard J, L
625 N Detroit Hughes, John W. Wife: Jessie M. Principal, Dunbar Grade School 1 frame story with basement
627 N Detroit Singer, Charles E. Wife Pearl. Blacksmith at Tulsa Boiler & Mach Co. 1 frame story with basement

Taking a look at the aerial drawing (1918) we see:

greenwoodmodified.2jpg

503 is 2 stories.  Unfortunately the drawing has some scale and placement issues, and the buildings are oversized for the block.  But we do see a second 2 story building.

If we look at the satellite map we see:

elgin2.JPG

The shift from Easton west of Detroit to east of Detroit is about hundred feet which means that we have to fit eight addresses in that distance, technically seven since 522 would be on the west side.

So what do we see from the other side?

 

 

 

rough.png

If the 2 story building is 503 then unfinished house must be 505, particularly as there is only one two story house listed in Events of the Tulsa Disaster on the 500 block.  Or if we look at the aerial drawing (1918) then the two story structure might be 523.

I believe this may actually be the case because of this image.

3a34285r.jpg

The two building fronts remain and the gray patch at the bottom of the picture may be Easton.   This means that what I believe we are looking at is this:

elgin2a.jpg

Why is this important? Because previously I had previously placed 523 a bit further north (about a hundred feet further north).

Testimony of John A. Oliphant, 2 Attorney General’s Civil Case Files, RG 1-2, A-G Case no. 1062, Box 25 (Oklahoma State Archives)

 

JOHN A. OLIPHANT

called as a witness on behalf of the State, having been first duly sworn to testify to the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, was examined in chief by Mr. Freeling and testified as follows:

Q Will you state your name to the Court and jury?

A John A. Oliphant.

Q Where do you live, Mr. Oliphant?

A Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Q What part of the city?

A I live over near Detroit and Easton, in that block.

Q How long have you lived here?

A A little over sixteen years.

Q How old a man are you.

A Seventy three.

Q Were you here on the night of May 31st?

A Yes, sir.

Q That is called the night of the riot, is it not?

A Yes, sir.

Q What was the first you observed concerning it, judge?

A Well, it was early the next morning, June 1st, just a good daylight when I discovered a lot of men coming up on the hill there east of my place.

Q White men or nigger men?

A They were white men.

Q Armed or unarmed?

A They were armed, they were all dressed in khaki clothing, they looked to me to be oversea soldiers.

Q What did they do?

A They were looking east and I got up and came out of my home and I walked rapidly over to Detroit and they were shooting across Detroit over on Elgin and in that locality on the north

of Easton.

Q I will ask you, judge, if during the morning you got in communication with the police station?

A Yes, I phoned and sent for them several times, I phoned to the police station myself.

Q What time did you phone?

A Well, that was between eight and nine o’clock, but I had sent before that a time or two.

Q A time or two?

A Yes, sir. and to the sheriff’s office also.

jackson.jpgQ Were you acquainted with Dr. Jackson?

A Yes, sir.

Q Is he living or dead?

A He is dead.

Q Did you witness his death?

A Yes, sir, I witnessed the shooting which caused his death a few minutes afterwards.

Q About what time in the morning was he shot, judge?

A Right close to eight o’clock, between seven thirty and eight o’clock.

Q Was that before or after you had communicated with the police station?

A The first thing I done I tried to get some policemen. I found there wasn’t any up there and I wanted to get some policemen to help me; I thought I could stop that whole business but I guess I was mistaken.

Q Did you get any help from the police officers?

A No, sir.

Q After you communicated with the police station what did you see with reference to Dr . Jackson?

A I was standing down on Detroit just fronting his house, just right opposite Easton down from where I live. I heard him holler and I looked up and saw him coming about twenty five feet away from me or thirty, with his hands up, and he said “Here am I”, he wanted to go —

MR LEAHY : We object to this statement of what Dr. Jackson said .

THE COURT: The objection will be overruled.

MR LEAHY: We except.

A I said to the fellows, “That is Dr. Jackson, don’t hurt him.”

Q How many were there?  How many men were there there at that time, Judge?

A About thirty or forty or fifty. around there.

Q How many of them were armed?

A Oh, I don’t know, the major portion of them was I presumed armed, they were practically all armed, I think.

Q What did you say Dr. Jackson said?

A He said, “Here am I, I want to go with you”, or something to that effect.

Q Who was he speaking to?

A I don’t know whether he was speaking to me or the other fellows. I was standing immediately in front of him and right on either side of me were three or four or five young fellows, citizens, with guns, and on the other side of the driveway were some more, two or three others.

Q Was Dr. Jackson shot by anybody?

A Yes sir.

Q How many were in the party that shot him?

A Oh, seven or eight.

Q Seven or eight.

A Yes, right in the party, they were all around there then.

Q How many fired?

A Two men fired at him.

Q, Did he fall?

A Yes, he fell at the second shot with the high powered rifle.

Q At the second shot?

A Yes, sir, he fell down.

Q What kind of a looking man was it that shot him?

A A young man with a white shirt and cap on.

Q How long was this after you had communicated with the police station asking for help?

A 0Q, I don’t know, half an hour, maybe an hour, I tried to get them two or three times and got them once or twice.

Q What was done concerning Dr. Jackson after he fell?

A Well, they loaded him in a car and took him away.

Q Who did that?

A The men there, the white men present.

Q Do you know whether they started to a hospital or not?

A That is where they said they was going, to a hospital.

Q These men that put him in a car, were they armed?

A Oh, yes, they were armed.

Q Were they shooting?

A Well, it was occasional shooting because over on — at that time, oh God, no, sir, there wasn’t a nigger man I suppose within a mile of that except one old man that was sick, and Dr. Jackson.

Q The two?

A They all left out before six, or right at six, there wasn’t a negro man in that locality after that time I don’t think.

Q They had gone, had they?

A Yes, sir. they had either come in and given themselves up, or they had run around the hill beyond the school house there and went out of my eight . I seen three or four or five, they wasn’t but a few negro men there. They was shooting close, from the number of shots; they always went over me. I got down on Detroit where — where they were balls from both sides went over me but I was too low down.

Q Judge, I wish you would tell the Court and jury at this time, at the time Dr. Jackson was shot, as to the degree of excitement, if you can.

LEAHY: We object to that as immaterial and incompetent.

THE COURT: Overruled.

LEAHY: We except.

A There was but little excitement then, the fight was all over and had been over for an hour and a half. There was no shooting at that particular time because there was no negroes over there to shoot at.

Q I will ask you, judge, if you saw any houses burned?

A Yes sir.

Q, Did you see any houses set afire?

A Yes, sir.

ellsworth1

N. Detroit home being looted.

Q Just tell how you saw them set afire, whether it was by one man or two or a party of people?

A Two or three or four did the firing of practically all the buildings there.

Q Explain their operation, would they fire one building and go to another?

A Yes, sir, this was away after ten o’clock, the negroes had been gone five hours from there and the excitement was practically all down, when any of those houses north of Easton, those good houses in the residence district were all burned after ten fifteen or ten thirty.

Q Where were the military authorities then?

A They come in at nine o’clock and I seen them parading, 1 expected the militia over there but they were just parading around the city having a promenade. I don’t know just what they were doing.

Q I will ask you, judge, after you phoned the police station for help, i£ you saw the chief of police or any police officer over there?

A Yes, there was four came over there .

Q What did they do?

A They were the chief fellows setting fires.

Q Were they in uniform?

A No, I can’t say —

Q Did they have on stars?

A They had ·stars, they had badges on: just one man, they called him Brown, l believe, a red complected fellow, I knew him as a policeman but the others I only knew from the badges they wore.

Q You say the red complected man you knew as a policeman?

A Yes.

Q Did you know his name?

A I understood they called him Brown.

A Was he with the party that was setting fire to houses?

A Yes, he and Cowboy Long were the chief burners.

Q Brown and Cowboy Long?

A Yes, sir.

Q How many houses did you see them set fire to?

ellsworth2

N. Detroit home being burned after looting.

A I never seen them actually set the fire to but one, they went in and when they came out the houses were burning, you know. I kept begging all the time to spare the houses because my property was just across the street from there, and when they burned them with the wind blowing as it was strongly from the east, it would burn me out. I was chiefly interested in the fire in that particular . But when they had –

Q You say you saw them set fire to one house?

A Yes.

Q How did they do it , tell the jury.

A They threw a lot of gasoline and coal oil back in the butlery at Dr. Jackson’s, that was Dr. Jackson’s house.

Q Was that before or after he was killed?

A That was after he was killed, that was two hours and a half or nearly three hours after he was killed.

Q These four men that you saw in a party, was there anybody else with them or ·were they travelling from place to place themselves?

riot44

N. Detroit homes being looted.

A They were scattered around there, quite a large number of people looting the houses and taking out everything. There wasn’t no excitement particularly. Some were singing, some were playing pianos that were taken out of the buildings, some were running victrolas, some dancing a jig and just having a rolicing easy good time in a business which they thought they were doing that was upright.

Q Aside from these men that you took to be police officers, the one you have called Brown and the one you have called Cowboy Long that party—

A He wasn’t a policeman.

Q I am not saying, judge, that he was, I say, in the party where you saw one man you called Brown, you knew he was a policeman—

A Yes, he had been.

Q —and in the party you saww a fellow by the name of Cowboy Long?

A Yes.

Q Did you see any other party or any other police officers over there that morning?

A There were four police officers there, three with this other one and Brown.

Q What were they doing, the three that were with Brown’?

A They were working in conjunction with that outfit there.

Q Doing what?

A Doing burning and looting or carrying out things and doing that which was as they said they were ordered to destroy— that ain’t the word they used. I don’t remember the word he used but it was to the effect that they was going to make the destruction complete.

Q Did you make any effort to prevent them?

A I did all the time I was— I had really protected the property from three or four crowds of fellows there that morning and this last crowd made an agreement that they would not burn that property because I thought it would burn mine too And I promised that if they wouldn’t, they made the promise if they would leave it I would see that no negroes ever lived in that row of houses any more. I promised all right.

Q You promised all right?

A Yes, sir, I promised, I didn’t know whether I could make good or not but I was going to try it.

Q Did you see any other police officers there that morning?

A No, sir, 6h, no, there wasn’t any others all the morning I seen anywhere.

Q Did you see any taking property out of houses.

A Oceans of it, they absolutely sacked all the houses and took everything out.

Q What was the nature of the property that was taken out?

Q Well, pianos, victrolas, clothing, chairs, musical instruments, clothing or all kinds, men, women and children would go in the house end fill up pillow cases, sheets and clothing and carry them out and carry them away.

Q Judge, how far was Dr. Jackson from you when he was shot?

A About twenty five, between twenty five and thirty feet.

Q How was he walking?

A He was walking right straight towards us, me and the other two fellows that was at my left and the other fellow that was at my right·, he was coming directly to me , I think.

Q Was he making a demonstration with his hands?

A No, he had··his hands that way (indicating). He says “Here am I, take me”, or something to that effect.

Q About what time, judge, did the trouble end, the burning?

A The burning?

Q Yes. sir.

A About ten thirty, a little after, it was all destroyed and the best of those houses were practically burned down all right through there at ten thirty.

Q At ten thirty?

A And at eleven thirty, about eleven o’clock the militia come over, marched over that way

Q And there wasn’t any disturbance after that, was there, along about eleven o’clock?

A No, no.

Q Did you see anybody else shot except Dr. Jackson?

A No, I am not certain that I did.

Q Sir?

A I am not certain that I did . I seen them shooting at each other, some in the windows of the school house I took to be colored men and probably one or two in the Baptist Church there in the window above.

Q Did you see any colored men or negro men shooting from the Baptist Church over there?

A No, I didn’t see them shoot, I heard the reports from that locality and I heard the balls whistle over my head as I passed.

Q About what time was that?

A Oh, this was early in the morning, about — between four thirty and five o’clock or five thirty, just about an hour’s time, right early in the morning.

Q Just about eight or nine o’clock what was the condition, was there a raging battle between a large number of armed people, or was it this looting by individuals?

A There wasn’t anything at all going on but the looting at that time, they were all gone, the niggers run away and give themselves up there in an hour’s time after I was up after the thing begun at four thirty in the morning.

Q Judge, when you phoned the police station what reply did you get?

A He said — somebody in there, I thought I knew the voice but I am not certain, he said “I will do the best I can for you.” I told him who I was, I wanted some policeman, I says, “If you will send me ten policemen I will protect all this property and save a million dollars worth of stuff they were burning down and looting.” I asked the fire department for the fire department to be sent over to help protect my property and they said they couldn’t come, they wouldn’t let them.

Q Did the policemen ever come that you called for?

A Well, I don’t know, those policemen, those four came over, I don’t know whether they came in obedience to my request. If they did I am mighty sorry they came, I wish they hadn’t come.

Q They are the ones you said were looting?

A They were helping burn, they were working in conjunction with the fellows there that were burning.

Q They were helping burn?

A Yes, sir.

Q Did any policemen come in response to your request that assisted in preventing any looting or burning or killing?

A Not one single one, not one. I got no assistance or encouragement from anyone, sheriff’s office or them either.

MR FREELING: I believe that is all.

CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. LEAHY:

Q, Where do you say you live?

A I live over there on Easton close to Detroit.

Q I don’t know where that is.

A That is right on stand pipe hill, I live there and there is where my property is.

Q You live on stand pipe hill?

A Yes, sir, I have lived there for sixteen years.

Q How far do you live from this district that was burned out?

A My property lies right across the street from that, right up to it, that is, part of it, I have got two houses there.

Q When was it that the shooting first commenced over in that neighborhood.

A Oh, about four thirty, between that, four and five o’clook.

Q Just about daylight?

A Yes, just good daylight, they come up there in uniform, I took them all to be ex-service men.

Q In uniform?

A Yes, they had the khaki uniform on. all except two boys that I seen, two or three boys.

Q Were they armed?

A Yes, sir, those boys were armed all right .

Q What kind of guns did they have?

A One of them had a high powered gun.

Q What do you mean by a high powered gun?

A One of these rapid shooters.

Q How is that?

A I call them rapid shooting guns, I thought he had a Henry, it might have been a Winchester. I don’t know, I didn’t take it only just seen it, seen it was a high powered gun.

Q You mean they were rifles?

A Yes, sir.

Q How many of those men did you see first?

A Well, there was about forth or fifty of them there right on the hill when I came out — just coming up on the bill when I came out and came down on the park.

Q Did they appear to be in command of anybody?

A No, I can’t say about that, they all seemed to be looking over there to see somebody shooting out across Detroit.

Q Were this party on the hilltop?

A They were forming along on the east side of the hill, right along the hill, the hill runs clear down to Detroit along back of my houses, they were forming along there, some forty or fifty of them.

Q Do you know whether they were the officers or not?

A No, sir, I don’t know anything about it.

Q Did you see anybody among them that appeared to be an officer?

A No, sir, I didn’t see anybody that appeared to be an officer, I knew some of them.

Q How is that?

A I knew some of them but they were—

Q Who did you know?

A I knew Voorhis.

Q What does he do?

A He was an overseas— I knew him because I know his father well and his father is a friend of mine, his father is dead now.

Q Member o£ the national guard here?

A Yes, he is a member of the national guard because he was a policeman after the war was over, he was in the service then.

Q Wasn’t this bunch of men you saw there members of the national guard?

A Well, I don’t know, they all had on khaki uniforms , I took them to be overseas soldiers and they may have been a part of the national guard, not— those that came from Oklahoma City you mean?

Q I mean the company that lives here.

A Well, some of them were, I think.

Q Did they have a machine gun there with them?

A The machine gun was just down on Detroit just below me there.

Q You know where the machine gun was, do you?

A Yes, sir.

Q How far were they from where the machine gun was?

A Oh, they were a block and a half or two blocks from the machine gun.

Q You say they were shooting from both ways?

A Yes, they— I heard the balls whistle from both ways from over there on the— early when the fighting begun, they was fighting there, shooting and quite a number of shots from each side.

Q You couldn’t say which side— you mean the negroes were firing?

A Yes, sir, across there on Elgin, Elgin and Frankfort, along in there you know they had some high powered guns, and the balls carried clear over to my home pretty near a quarter of a mile away.

Q How frequent was the firing, judge?

A It could be a half a dozen shots, then be intervals and then you know two or three other shots. .

Q How long could the intervals be?

A Two or three shots, sometimes, you know, getting ready— I suppose they were looking to see them appear at the windows in the brick buildings, that is what 1 judged.

Q How frequently was the shooting that came from the negro settlement?

A Well, as I told you, two or three shots, maybe a half a dozen shots, and two or three or four shots; you know, but it soon ended.

Q Probably a few hundred shots in an hour?

A Yes, sir; I should judge that anyhow, I should judge a few hundred shots.

Q These men that were stationed on the hill there, they were answering back the shooting that came from the negroes?

A Yes, they were shooting back at each other all right.

Q You say that was about four thirty in the morning?

A That is when that commenced, yes, sir.

Q How long before it stopped?

A It was all over before five thirty anyhow.

Q You mean the shooting right in that immediate neighborhood?

A Yes, sir.

Q When you say the shooting was over you don’t mean the shooting was over throughout the city at that time?

A I think that is the last place where there was any shooting or any consequence occurred that morning because they had been driven out down below there.

Q How many armed negroes did you see around there that morning?

A I couldn’t tell, I only seen them across there, a black or two you know at the windows two or three times.

Q In your judgment about how many armed negroes did you see over there that morning?

A I seen four or five running around the hill you know, there wasn’t many there that I seen.

Q, How many places did you observe they were shooting from there?

A About three places.

Q How many armed white men did you see over there?

A There were quite — there was a hundred or two or three perhaps.

Q Were they all stationed on the hill?

A Well, they came up on the hill and then went around down north of Fairview and then some of them came down to where I was on Detroit.

Q Those men were shooting back and forth at each other, the negroes and the white people you spoke of, was that the time you phoned to the police station?

A I did before that and since.

Q Did you during the time that shooting was going on?

A No, sir, I couldn’t get away from where 1 was just then, I didn’t go to a phone at that time, I thought I could stop the business when I went down there but I wasn’t able to do it.

Q What time was this that Dr. Jackson was shot?

A Just about eight o’clock, between seven thirty and eight o’clock.

Q These men that were with you at the time the shooting occurred, were they part of the same men that were on the hilltop?

A Well I expect that some of them were but I am not certain whether they were or not.

Q How were they dressed?

A Some of them had on khaki uniforms. some of them in citizens clothes, the two young men that done the shooting of Jackson didn’t have on uniform of any kind.

Q They didn’t have a uniform?

A No.

Q Did you know them?

A No, sir, I did not.

Q Had you ever seen them before?

A I couldn’t say, I don’t know anything about them.

Q Have you’ ever seen them since?

A No, sir.

Q Did you know the men that were in uniform along with the boys that did the shooting?

A No, sir, I didn’t. I probably knew some of them because I am well acquainted here, but I don’t remember, judge, I don’t remember the individual person. The excitement was pretty heavy and I had so many things to think about and try to do that I couldn’t [c]harge.judge. I couldn’t remember just who was in the party.

Q How long had they been with you at that place before they shot Dr. Jackson?

A Well, not very long.

Q Ten minutes?

A I had been right around there for a couple of hours but they hadn’t been there but very few minutes, they just came in a gang.

Q You had talked to them before Dr. Jackson came up there, hadn’t you?

A Sir?

Q You had talked to these boys that were there before Dr. Jackson came up?

A Yes, I kept telling them all the time not to burn the houses there because they would burn me up if they did.

Q About what time in the morning did you say it was Dr. Jackson was shot?

A Right close to eight o’clock, between seven thirty and eight o’clock.

[Page 17 is missing]

part

A Yes, they were only three places, the school house and the Baptist Church and a brick grocery store.

Q What kind of buildings were those, brick buildings?

A Brick buildings.

Q From those buildings they were shooting?

A Yes, sir.

Q And that was about all the brick buildings there were in that section?

A There was a few others, but they were prominent, they were where they could be seen easily.

Q Those were the prominent buildings in the negro section?

A Yes, sir, that part of it, in the residence portion.

Q What did you say to whoever you got in touch with at the police station when you phoned?

A I wanted them to send me up about ten policemen and help me protect that property, judge. I guess I said my property and I said we could care for all that property if I had them, I had watched it for two or three hours.

Q Did you know to whom you talked in the police station?

A No, I am not certain.

Q You didn’t ask any name?

A No, I asked if that was the police office and he said it was. I don’t think it was Mr. Gustafsen, it didn’t talk like him.

Q You don’t think it was Mr. Gustafsen?

A No, I don’t.

Q They did tell you they would try to send you help?

A Yes, sir, they said they would do the best they could to send me somebody to help.

Q, Now after that you phoned again to the police station?

A Yes, sir.

Q, What time?

A That is, there was some fellows came there about nine o’olock and began talking about burning and then I phoned again but didn’t get anybody.

Q You didn’t get anybody?

A I sent two or three fellows over there and to the sheriff’s office to tell them to come over and help me, just to give me ten fellows.

Q You sent some men to come over to the sheriff’s office?

A To the sheriff’s office and to police headquarters.

Q But you didn’t get in touch over the phone any more with the police headquarters?

A No, I don’t think I did, I don’t remember now that I did.

Q These men that came over there about nine o’clock, how many were in that crowd?

A Well, that wasn’t the last crowd, that wasn’t the crowd that done the burning. They came there about ten or ten fifteen, the crowd that done the burning.

Q How many of them were there?

A There was twenty five or thirty in the gang.

Q How many gangs?

A There was only the one gang came then and they had been three a time or two. Some others had talked about burning but these fellows came there—

Q Hadn’t there, judge, early that morning, been hundreds of men over through that section of town?

A They came through, the home guards marched up there at eight o’clock up Detroit in single file at eight o’clock and I thought they was going to help us, I thought that would end the trouble and it would have done if they had stayed there, but they marched up there on the hill, Sunset Hill and stayed up there where they could do no good on earth.

Q That was the national guard that did that?

A Yes.

Q The local company that is located here?

A Yes, sir .

Q Do you know whom they were in charge of?

A No; I did know at the time, sir, but I don’t remember now. They marched in single file with their guns.

Q Do you know Colonel Rooney?

A Oh, yes, I know him very well, I don’t think he was in command, yet he may have been, I know colonel very well. He was over there in that locality before and I think after .

Q He had been over there that morning?

A Yes, sir, and 1 think he rendered good service too.

Q He was the officer that has control of the local company here, isn’t he?

A Yes, he is the officer, I understand so, but I don’t know whether he was in charge of the company at that time.

Q How long did the company stay over there?

A They went up on the hill and I didn’t watch them, I didn’t have time to watch them, I don’t know what became of them.

Q You don’t know how long they stayed there?

A They didn’t come back, I thought they were going to stay there.

Q In addition to that company there were other men went over in uniform?

A Oh, yea, they were gathered around there pretty thick, every once in a while a squad came over.

Q Would it be safe to say, judge, that men were over there that appeared to be officers to the number of one hundred that morning, including the national guard?

A Well, there was a hundred, over a hundred that were in uniform, khaki uniforms: I don’t know whether they pretended to be officers or what office they performed but they were there all right.

Q You say the negroes left that section there near you early that morning?

A Yes, about six o’clock — a little before five or about five or shortly afterwards I saw a negro groceryman over on Elgin, I hollered to him and told him if they didn’t come out of there and get protection they would every one be killed and for him to tell them so and he did so. All up that street then, Professor Hughes and all them folks came out and gave themselves up, to our fellows that were taking— conducted to the—

Q The officers that were over there did take charge practically then of the entire negro population that was in that section?

A The men in khaki uniforms did, yes.

Q Before the negroes had been run off?

A Yes, yes, every one of them, they brought them off and brought them down to Convention Hall.

Q And they were taken charge of by officers that were there?

A Yes, about six o’olock they got hold of them.

Q During ‘the time you say the buildings were burned over there, the negro population had all been removed to Convention Hall?

A Either that or they had left, run east around the hill; there wasn’t any neggers there at all.

4, Did you know any of those persons that did any of the burning?

A I know the faces of some of them but I don’t know of anybody.  I can’t tell of anybody except what I have already testified to.

Q Have you seen any of them since that?

A Not a single one, and not one; I have looked for them too.

Q You haven’t seen any of them?

A No.

Q You don’t know anything about what they were doing there except that they were burning the property?

A No. that is all; they seemed to be having a good time in their proper element. They burned the houses after they were all robbed you know, looted.

Q You say that women and children were looting the houses as well as men?

A Sure.

Q Did you know any of the women and children?

A I knew the faces of some of them but I couldn’t tell the names.

Q You couldn’t tell the names?

A They got considerable of that property back that they taken over there, I helped to get some of it.

Q You say there was a fellow by the name of Brown?

A That is what they said, I don’t know his name. I know the man all right if I would see him, he was a red complected fellow.

Q Have you seen him around the court house here?

A No, sir, I haven’t seen him here.

Q Have you seen him since that day?

A I haven’t seen him since that day.

Q Have you been to the police station since that?

A No, I haven’t.

Q Will you go there and see if you can find him and report back here?

MR FREELING: To which we object as incompetent, irrelevant and immaterial.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q This Cowboy Long, what about him, who was he?

A I only know him by what they said his name was, they threatened that when he come he would fix them houses quick, and he did.

Q Did you ever see him before?

A I think I have seen him before but I don’t know.

Q Have you seen him since?

A I haven’t seen him since.

Q Read about him in the newspapers?

A Yes, sir.

Q For years?

A For years.

Q You have read about him in the newspapers?

Yes, I knew the reputation of the fellow.

Q He is a notorious bootlegger, isn’t he?

A Yes, no question about that; I knew that at that time. When they called his name I feared him because I had heard about him .

Q Did you talk to him over there?

A Yes, and he and Brown were the fellows I made a dicker with to save the houses if they wouldn’t burn them I would prevent any negroes from living in them.

Q  At the time they were burning these houses where was the national guard, still on the hill?

A No. They had gone I guess. You see that was nearly five hours after the fight was over, over there, the real fighting, pretty near five hours.

Q, The national guard had left the place?

A I think so entirely, I don’t think there was any of the national guard there, I don’t remember any of them .

Q There wasn’t anybody in an official capacity there at that time?

A Yes, there was one. This man Voorhis. One fellow threatened me and he said to him– I know hie father, he is a Missourian, so am I, he says, ”If you hurt that man there will be something doing damn quick here”, I heard that. I heard that and walked away.

Q Voorhis is a member of the national guard?

A Yes, sir.

Q And working with the police at that time?

A He was working there and trying to do something He is a good fellow too.

Q He was doing all he could to protect property?

A I don’t know what he was doing really, I knew he protected me all right.

Q He protected you?

A Yes, he did that.

Q He was the only one there at that time, you say?

A There might have been others, judge, but I don’t remember.

Q Do you know when the city was put under martial law?

A I think it was about twelve o’clock, I think, I don’t know—

Q You know it was put under martial law?

A Yes, yes, I know.

Q And that the officers came from the state capitol here?

A Yes, they come but they didn’t come over there.

Q They didn’t come over there?

A No, sir, they got off of the train at nine o’clock, I had sent for· them, I see the train pull in, I said “We are safe now.” An hour and a half after that all those buildings were standing there. I sent for them, I sent for the militia to come, send over fifteen or twenty or them that is all I wanted.

Q Who did you send to?

A I sent to the—directed it to Charlie Barrett and an old friend of mine.

Q Did you get in touch with General Barrett?

A No, I didn’t get— I don’t know whether they did, he said they were coming over.

Q Did you talk with somebody on the phone or did you go to see them?

A I sent a man over, I sent a man to see the mayor and have the soldiers come over there immediately after they arrived, and he told me he would try to have them come.

Q Who was the man ths.t you sent?

A Well, air, I don’t know, I sent several fellows.

Q Did you tell them to go to General Barrett?

A I told them to go over there and have the soldiers come over here at once .

Q You knew General Barrett was there?

A No, I hadn’t seen him, I supposed he would be here but I didn’t see him.

Q You understood he was adjutant general of the state?

A I knew he was.

Q He was an old friend of yours?

A ‘Yes, sir.

Q You wanted him to understand about this matter and you sent to him telling him you were wanting some men to come out and help protect your property and their property?

A Yes, sir, that is a fact.

Q And that train came in at about nine o’clock?

A Yes, sir.

Q How long was it before you saw any of the militia over there?

A About eleven o’clock.

Q About eleven o’clock?

A They came over the hill at eleven o’olock when everything was burned.

Q, Between the time the militia arrived and the time they got over to your place this burning took place?

A Yes, sir.

Q When you spoke of the burning there do you mean the negro district that was burned out was adjacent to you?

A I mean all that good residence district north of Easton and east of Detroit, of course. They had burned down about the main part of the city, they had been burning that before they commenced on this property up there, the good residence portion wasn’t burned until nine or ten fifteen or ten thirty.

Q And that property was burned, notwithstanding there was a lot of militia on hill previous to that?

A They bad been there previously, yes, sir, the militia had, but they wasn’t there then, they had perhaps gone,

Q How many people were engaged in the burning of property there?

A In that property there burning north of—

Q, Yes.

A Oh, there wasn’t over eight or ten or fifteen.

Q Eight or ten or fifteen did all that burning?

A Yes, sir.

Q, Was there any other people there armed?

A Yes, there were, I understood that— I don’t know how armed they were but they were there.

Q How many?

A Say one hundred or two, most of them was carrying away goods, and furniture and so forth.

Q ·Now at ten to ten thirty, the morning of June the lst, how many men would you say there were in your presence or in your neighborhood there that were looting or burning or armed men, people running around there?

A There wasn’t over ten or fifteen or twenty of the men who were armed doing the burning or destroying.

Q, How many were doing the looting?

Q Oh, a hundred or two, they kept coming and going, judge; I couldn’t tell how many there were, both men, women and children, boys and girls carried away things.

Q Where they people that lived in the neighborhood?

A Some of them were, yes, sir.

Q You mean to say you could see the people on stand pipe hill from where you lived?

A From where I lived?

Q Yes.

A I am right there on the hill, right on top of it.

Q This national guard that was up there, how close were they to your house?

A Passed right by my house. part of them come right on the walk there right close there.

Q Did they take a station there somewhere?

A They kept going there and forming along on the east brow of the hill, and that is when— that was early in the morning you know, just daylight.

Q This machine gun, where was it?

A That was down on Detroit.

Q How far from your house?

A Oh, that was three or four blocks from my house, but only about two blocks from where I was when I got over on Easton and Detroit.

Q How many men were there when the machine gun was there?

A I didn’t go to the machine gun. They told me that was a machine gun, I heard it shoot. I knew it was an extraordinary shot but it didn’t shoot very fast.

Q Judge, are you friendly or unfriendly to the present city administration?

A Well, sir, I helped to put them in, I guess I am friendly.

Q You know whether you are or not, don’t you?

A Yes, I know I am so far as— they are my personal friends, all of them. Of course I don’t like the way they done on that day but that don’t knock out our friendship.

Q I don’t mean your personal friendship for the men, you are not friendly to them as officials at this time, are you, judge?

A I can’t say but what I am, sir.

Q How do you feel toward Chief Gustafson?

A I think he didn’t do his duty and of course I am not so very friendly to him as an officer.

Q You are not friendly?

A No, sir, I say that frankly.

Q LEAHY: That is all.

3a34285r

N. Detroit in ruins.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FREELING:

Q Why are you not?

A Because I don’t believe he done his duty there in protecting me and property.

MR MOSS: Comes now the defendant and moves the Court to strike out the answer of the witness on the ground and for the reason that the same in incompetent, irrelevant and immaterial.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR MOSS: Exception.

MR FREELING: That is all.

Witness excused.